McLaren complained about the severity of Lando Norris’s for failing to slow for double waved yellow flags during the Qatar Grand Prix.
Norris was given a 10-second stop-go penalty, one of the harshest sanctions available to the stewards, for the incident on lap 30 of yesterday’s race. When imposed, the penalty requires a driver to enter this pits within three laps and sit in their pit box for 10 seconds.McLaren team principal Andrea Stella claimed Norris’s punishment was disproportionate to the offence. “In the application of the penalty, I think we have lost any sense of proportion and any sense of specificity,” he told Sky after yesterday’s race.
Stella was particularly infuriated that Norris was penalised for failing to slow for yellow flags which were subsequently withdrawn despite the fact the hazard they were displayed for – a piece of debris on the start/finish straight – had not been cleared.
“Can we look specifically, at the infringement, the level of danger associated to the situation – and, in fact, the yellow flag was removed – and then judge, using these kind of elements, proportion and specificity. Rather than taking a look at any kind of rule book, probably full of dust on top of it, and then apply it without any sense of critical approach.
“So from this point of view, I think there’s an opportunity to do better from the FIA.”
However Norris’s penalty is consistent with the small number of past cases of drivers failing to slow for double waved yellow flags during races. Only three cases have occured in the past 14 seasons.
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Kimi Raikkonen was given a 10-second stop-go penalty for failing to slow for double waved yellow flags during the 2017 Belgian Grand Prix. Four years later two drivers received the same sanction for the same offence during the Austrian Grand Prix: Nikita Mazepin and Nicholas Latifi. In all three cases the drivers were also given three penalty points on their licence, as Norris was today.
There have been many other instances of drivers failing to slow for double waved yellow flags, which is usually punished with a five-place grid drop, as Verstappen received at this race in 2021.
Norris did not take issue with his penalty, describing it as “fair”.
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Jojo
2nd December 2024, 0:38
Initially I thought it was unfairly harsh as I hadn’t recalled what penalties had been handed out for the same infringement previously. If it’s the rules, then it is what it is.
It’s a bit of a shame though, as we were almost going to get a good battle for the lead, but it put an abrupt end to that!
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
2nd December 2024, 1:43
Indeed, norris was very fast, gaining 3 sec on the slower cars when he was recovering and example passing albon in an unusual overtaking spot and also when he was behind verstappen he looked like he was in with a possibility to overtake.
notagrumpyfan
2nd December 2024, 8:16
I totally missed the fact that it was double waved yellow.
If the 10S&G is the norm, then this is fair.
It’s worrying though that Norris mentioned that he didn’t see the flag. I assume there are besides the waved flags: light panels, message on the onboard entertainment system, plus a voice-over on the radio.
Stella should instead of complaining about the penalty look into what went wrong there.
Jonathan
2nd December 2024, 13:40
I think it was reported yesterday that there was a double yellow flag, but no light panel yet, and though Verstappen got a radio report, Norris was only warned about the debris, not the yellows.
Jojo
2nd December 2024, 23:24
The light panel must have been on for Norris. In the stewards report it says:
Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
2nd December 2024, 0:46
Feel a bit for Lando. The hits just seem to keep coming and he keeps copping it.
Well I haven’t seen anything yet, but the WRacing cars have been a cause of concern to me lately. Too many “big ones” and patched up. Frankly I thought they should have had repairs
independently overseen , be recertified a month or so ago. (I forgot how to spell homologated).but no time or not in regs?
They’re a bit of a worry to me.
So a mirror falls off T1
Any penalty for WRacing?
Personally I don’t want them lining up until it’s shown they’re.”safe”.
End os season, sit it out or turn up as req’d and unfortunately “can’t trace engine problem” DNS.
Patrick (@paeschli)
2nd December 2024, 13:24
Just like in Brazil where Norris did not follow the proper procedure for the aborted start, this was a failing of both Norris and the team. Norris should know what to do, and the team should be there to remind him of the rules.
They got away with it in Brazil, this time they did not get so lucky. Both need to get their act together.
Jack (@jt1234)
2nd December 2024, 1:51
The question is still open as you didn’t provide circumstance of the instances. It was too harsh. The FIA is out of control.
Levente (@leventebandi)
2nd December 2024, 2:57
The argument Stella tries to bring up is absolutely nonsense. There can be mitigating circumstances, like yellow gets applied the moment you go past the post or something like that, but not that “We think there is not a big danger on the track”. This is a safety issue, there is nothing to argue on.
If you start to proportionate the penalty to a perceived danger, teams will start to weight on whether they need to slow down for a particular yellow or not, because they might gain more than the 5 second penalty they are given , and also there is no “faint yellow” “mid yellow” “intensive yellow” flag, just yellow, and it needs to be taken seriously, there is no place for arguing “I thought there is no big danger”
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
2nd December 2024, 3:04
What’s the difference between the stop go for the other drivers and Verstappen’s 5 place grid drop?
Nikos (@exeviolthor)
2nd December 2024, 5:47
If the offence takes place during the race, it is a 10 sec stop go.
If it takes place during qualifying it is a 5 place grid drop.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
2nd December 2024, 13:02
Thanks. Those are not necessarily equivalent. The race one will always be more severe. That was a 15-place grid drop in the race. Verstappen probably made up the 5 spots by Turn 1.
This could be a non-penalty vs a massive penalty.
Nikos (@exeviolthor)
3rd December 2024, 5:39
I agree and I do not understand why a 5 place grid drop is considered to be equivalent to a 10 sec stop go.
Maybe these penalties were established at a time when there was no DRS in which case a 5 place drop is pretty big.
Mike Davies (@nanotech)
2nd December 2024, 3:35
It’s not “too harsh” – it’s intentionally harsh, and has been forever.
There’s no room for arguing proportion on a penalty for ignoring safety flags. That’s how people die, and adherence to those standards are how drivers and marshals and anyone near the track trusts that it’s safe to be there. There are no mitigating circumstances. This is true in (virtually) every amateur and professional race series – the penalties are harsh for a reason.
The marshalling and race direction was a mess, sure, but if you see a yellow flag YOU LIFT and get ready to slow down. It doesn’t matter why. Norris knows this, hence not protesting. He messed up.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
2nd December 2024, 4:53
I am pretty sure Lando didn’t see the yellow flags. At least that’s the hearsay from some youtubers. I honestly couldn’t watch the whole race, what a hot flaming turd of a race, went completely south after Max’s demotion after a great lap, just can’t get it. Crap track, crap regulation, letting debris stay on track like that, for what ? then double yellows for what ? and then boom, okay ? How about pick up the wing mirror sooner so you don’t wreck cars. absolute farce of a mess.
Ray West (@raynaud2211)
2nd December 2024, 7:21
On the onboard of Norris you could clearly see the yellow flashing. It was already flashing when he turned onto the straight.
The argument is weak since Verstappen did see it.
Optimaximal (@optimaximal)
2nd December 2024, 8:38
The only arguement that could be made is the Yellow light board is too far off to the left, out of the drivers sight line at that point of the straight because of the wide run-off, but it’s a weak argument at best and doesn’t explain why the team didn’t appraise him of the situation.
Stu
2nd December 2024, 12:37
The drivers also have flag indication lights on their wheels as they approach that marshalling sector, so really no excuse not to see it.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
2nd December 2024, 20:56
@raynaud2211 are you talking about the steering wheel? I think the Light turned yellow just as he passed by it.
It’s immaterial except for the danger it poses to the driver and others not to see a yellow flag when there’s clearly one.
Jere (@jerejj)
2nd December 2024, 6:35
I’d totally forgotten that a 10-sec stop-&-go penalty had been issued for double yellow infringement during races before as well.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
2nd December 2024, 7:23
Double-waved yellows? There was no way for the TV viewer to know there was double vs single because it was so dark and the display panels don’t depict this. The driver on-board lighting system does not depict this, and apparently it was too dark to see the marshals.
If the FIA wants to have differential penalties for single- and double-waved yellows (an offence which hasn’t been reliably disambiguated since 2017 due to this being an easily-observed weakness of how the display panels display information). The FIA might also wish to consider that the two occasions where 10-second stop/go was issued weren’t just because they were doubles (and in the 2021 case, double-waved yellows wasn’t used in the justification, only in the description of the offence). The 2017 one involved speeding through an incident and Kimi claiming the car was behind the barrier as an excuse (aggravating factor if Kimi mentioned that on the in-race radio). The 2021 one involved 2 cars still in the vicinity and was on the last lap, so the stewards appeared to want to make a point about not letting up one’s guard too early (and then there was a problem because only 2 out of 8 people with an infringement got any penalty at all, without an explanation of why that made sense for all the people exonerated).
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
2nd December 2024, 7:25
(I’d also request that the ability of marshals to see each other’s flags is reviewed; this is the second time in three races we’ve been given reason to believe they might not, and the moment marshals can’t see each others’ flags, it’s an immediate race-stopper by the regulations And no, display boards do not get one around the regulation, partly for their limitations and partly due to what happens if the tech fails for any reason (as may have happened earlier in the race when the yellow flag marker was flapping).
S
2nd December 2024, 8:39
This is not at all about the TV viewer.
All the people who needed to know, did (except for one, who got a penalty for disobeying it).
You don’t have to like or agree with the FIA (and you don’t, clearly) – but they got this 100% correct.
Ray West (@raynaud2211)
2nd December 2024, 7:26
Quite a shocking statement of Stella on the severity of safety penalties. I would say rewatch Bianchi crash and then say penalties are to hard compared to human lifes. Yellow means lift and not let’s watch later if it was justified Norris didn’t lift.
Man up and be mad at Norris and his side of the garage that they didn’t warn him.
Mr A
2nd December 2024, 8:12
How is that even remotely relevant? We dont even have recovery trucks without a SC anymore, so that wouldn’t ever happen. It was also bone dry. You can’t have flagged up a more different scenario if you tried.
Ray West (@raynaud2211)
2nd December 2024, 9:33
Oh man, its not about the situation or the recovery truck. It’s about ignoring double yellow and the consequences.
notagrumpyfan
2nd December 2024, 10:38
You are making an even bigger mistake as Stella; he was merely questioning the severity of the penalty, whereas you seem to suggest they are allowed second guessing the double waved yellow flag itself.
It could be extremely dangerous if drivers/teams are allowed to ignore the flags.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
2nd December 2024, 20:58
@raynaud2211 yeah but at the same time the FIA was clearly endangering everyone with wild abandon and everyone knew.
MacLeod (@macleod)
2nd December 2024, 7:42
Double waved that I didn’t knew I thought it was just yellow then the penaulty is correct hard but correct.
MichaelN
2nd December 2024, 8:00
Right, and in that case everybody should have had a penalty. Double means be prepared to stop.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
2nd December 2024, 9:31
“Be prepared to stop” is vague and therefore unenforceable. What would that mean on a straight, slow down to 50mph? IF that is what they expect, then they would need to make that clear before the next race and enforce it as such. But at this point in time, double waved yellow just means you need to lift a little, which every driver that passed through double yellows did, apart from Norris. Therefore, Norris was the only one penalised. All the other drivers didn’t lift, because they weren’t shown double yellows (apart from Yuki, who was misinformed by his team and lifted despite not needing to).
MichaelN
2nd December 2024, 10:06
No, quantifying it is what led to 2014’s disaster. Drivers know that they cannot anticipate a hazard on track when “lifting off”. Visibility from these cars is too poor and speeds too high. As indeed we saw.
But hey! Maybe F1 will keep getting lucky. That’s what they’re banking on, it seems. Good luck to them.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
2nd December 2024, 14:04
So you are arguing that the requirement for drivers to respond to double yellow flags is not strict enough, which I agree with. But you are not arguing about the enforcement of the penalty, which was correct on this occasion following the rules as they have been previously applied and are understood to apply by the participants.
Mr A
2nd December 2024, 8:11
The issue I have with this is why it took another team tell-tailing for it to be enforced? And are they honestly accepting that nobody else failed to slow?
FIA spot these themselves, or they don’t penalise. If there were other drivers who didn’t slow, then McLaren were penalised by virtue of being closest to Verstappen when it happened. So the only one who got a penalty was the one who took time off Max.
If that’s not pro-Verstappen bias, if that doesn’t make you see, then nothing will.
S
2nd December 2024, 8:51
Enough with this nonsense.
Yesterday they gave Verstappen a penalty, remember? One that has never been given to anyone in F1’s entire history, despite thousands of comparable incidents.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
2nd December 2024, 9:34
I highly doubt this is the case. I’m sure they are looking at the gaps and throttle traces for all cars passing through double yellow areas, and investigating any that seem suspicious. Of course a rival will point out if they see a rival who they think hasn’t lifted, as Verstappen did, but that doesn’t mean that the stewards would miss it if it wasn’t pointed out.
ludewig
2nd December 2024, 12:56
@Mr A
Why do you assume that other teams would not have complained if the cars near their driver would suddenly gain a bunch of time?
An Sionnach
2nd December 2024, 9:16
Correct. Failing to comply in any way with yellows cannot be accepted.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
2nd December 2024, 9:56
Stella’s arguments are fine but there WAS a double waved yellow which he failed to adhere. Whatever happened next is irrelevant. The FIA could’ve done a better job and actually cleaned the track with a SC to avoid Bottaa, Sainz and Hamilton’s incidents but drivers would’ve still needed to slow down which Lando didn’t.
Ricki Kerr-Hunter
2nd December 2024, 10:18
It ought to have been a SC or a VS immediately to clear the mirror. I don’t understand why they waited at all.
Ricki Kerr-Hunter
2nd December 2024, 10:20
Does anyone know the time between the debris coming off and the yellows?
Matej Pavlič
2nd December 2024, 13:26
It was several laps, and I was astonished not to hear a single team radio informing the drivers there’s a mirror there. That would imply that they were waiting for the race director to solve it. Makes no sense for Bottas to hit it if he knew. Am pretty sure he did not see it being so low in the car.
Ricki Kerr-Hunter
2nd December 2024, 16:13
Yeah, several laps, I thought that too. Too long in my opinion, they can’t possibly talk about safety when they delay that long…
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
2nd December 2024, 21:00
The concern here is that Norris claims that he didn’t see it and the penalty clearly confirms that he didn’t as he would not t have thrown away P2 for that.
How is it possible that he didn’t see it? People are saying there are indicators on the wheels, the LED lights turned too late, and there was someone waving them but it’s not the easiest thing to see. You might as well spot the mirror on the track which clearly Bottas did not. Obviously there’s no penalty for that but he also didn’t see it.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
2nd December 2024, 21:03
My point is that the yellow flags are NOT there to penalize but to be obvious to drivers so they can slow down. They are not penalty traps, they are safety mechanisms and clearly they failed massively in Norris’ case. Of course, it was utilized to destroy Norris’ race by Verstappen but ultimately the concern here is safety. If Norris gets a 10 second stop/go penalty, then the FIA should be getting a 50 lap stop/go penalty because a driver was not able to see the flags or other indicators.