Why Verstappen’s ‘divebomb’ moves on Norris paid off despite his penalties

64 comments on “Why Verstappen’s ‘divebomb’ moves on Norris paid off despite his penalties”

1. 

   Osnola
   28th October 2024, 15:43

   Still not sure about turn 4 incident. I horner is correct and the telemetry confirms it, lando braked to late and verstappen was first on the apex.
   Turn 7 was a clear penalty.
   Btw the fact that one of the stewards was the son of the McLaren founder raises some questions.
   1. 

      Mark
      28th October 2024, 15:57

      Great article
   2. 

      Oerp
      28th October 2024, 16:02

      If you need telemetry to see who was ahead at the apex how would a driver be able to tell whether they were ahead or not? Also watching the footage you can see Lando was ahead at turn in and fully alongside up until the point Max ran him off the road. It worked in Austin where he was ahead, this time he got it wrong. The fact of the matter is Max hard braked into the corner with no intention of ever leaving any room for Lando, as evidenced by the fact that just a couple of corners later he ran off the road again.
   3. 

      Stephen Taylor
      28th October 2024, 16:15

      Lando would have made T4 . The telemetry is distorted by the fact Lando had to tiurnout of the corner because MV gave no space
   4. 

      MichaelN
      28th October 2024, 17:09

      I horner is correct

      Horner will gladly lie about anything he thinks is a benefit to his team. He has zero credibility.

      Norris was denied an opportunity to turn in by Verstappen, which is not allowed as it constitutes ‘crowding off’.
   5. 

      Jere (@jerejj)
      28th October 2024, 17:59

      Osnola Resorting to telemetry trace was low from him, not to mention he can’t prove anything about Lando without having access to his telemetry trace, so he should simply accept that he left the track solely because Max forced him rather than because of approach speed or anything else.
   6. 

      AlanD
      28th October 2024, 18:52

      Osnola: “verstappen was first on the apex”

      If you dive bomb to the inside and continue in a straight line so that your opponent cannot turn in, then it is inevitable that you will reach the midpoint of the curve first. Unfortunately, F1 cars are so long these days that you don’t really see the outside car performing the cutback any more.
      1. 

         DavidDesu
         29th October 2024, 9:19

         Exactly. This referring to telemetry nonsense is just that, nonsense. Max didn’t, couldn’t, make the turn. Dangerous driving. Completely unsportsmanlike and as the best driver seemingly he had no excuse. He knows he was never making the corner in a million years at that speed. Oh but he was ahead at the apex…. jeez.
   7. 

      Davethechicken
      28th October 2024, 19:37

      The telemetry is a complete red herring to try and trick opinion.
      Comparing the corner speed and braking point of a driver trying to overtake another car around the outside with a driver trying to take the optimum line and maximise exit speed from the corner is completely disengenuous.
      Of course he would brake later as he is taking a wider line, not the fastest line. Ergo he would be travelling faster also at the normal braking point. An F1 car can lose 15kph in a fraction of a second.with brakes applied..
      Taking a wider line and too much entry speed sn’t the fastest way around the corner obviously as he loses massively on corner exit speed, but it gains a position.
      Smoke and mirrors from Horner. Tricking fans who take his statistics without actually considering the mechanics of an overtake.
   8. 

      Doh
      29th October 2024, 11:14

      On the other hand I wondered if Horner thinks the fans and journalists are dumb when he made a show of said data.

      Of course lando was carrying more speed than a normal lap.

      1. He was on a wider line.
      2. On a normal lap the entry to turn 5 is made more optimal and so the exit is compromised to allow for this. Meaning you exit turn 4 with much less speed than you would if there was a straight after it instead of a corner.

      If Horner really believed that data to be incriminating lando, he would have appealed and shown it to the stewards. He banked on fooling journalists and fans instead and I guess he’s at least halfway right there.
2. 

   Michael (@freelittlebirds)
   28th October 2024, 15:56

   Which is exactly what I’ve been saying – these penalties are not penalties. He still gets ahead by doing it and even Norris penalized at Austin for the exact same incidents where Russell received a real penalty.

   Like I said, if Norris dies (and I know it’s extreme but it can happen especially with Mad Max), it’s more likely that the deceased Norris will be penalized to avoid Max receiving a lifetime stigma for killing another driver. And on top of that, Norris will get penalty points on his license and a race ban to go with it.

   And of course Max is laughing his head off after this while Norris is feeling like the entire world is against him.
   1. 

      Esploratore (@esploratore1)
      29th October 2024, 0:13

      Cars can roll over several times and you would be surprised if the driver is injured after that, there’s no risk whatsoever of a driver killing another by taking him out of the race.
      1. 

         Michael (@freelittlebirds)
         29th October 2024, 2:38

         @esploratore1 yes they can and yet a silly accident can kill you like it did to Jules Bianchi and Maria De Villota.

         The sport is safer but not bulletproof – you only need to watch Monza 2021 where Max nearly decapitated Lewis in another revenge move (sadly for his own mistake again) and Bahrain 2020 where Grosjean survived by the skin of his teeth (Max was not involved in that one but probably because he wasn’t racing yet in F1).
         1. 

            SteveP
            29th October 2024, 7:42

            Bahrain 2020 where Grosjean survived by the skin of his teeth (Max was not involved in that one but probably because he wasn’t racing yet in F1).

            Er, Max was in F1 in 2015.
            He spent most of the first four years colliding with barriers more than other drivers.
            He’s the reason the FIA introduced a minimum age – I think they assumed that the collisions were due to youthful over-eagerness, rather than a natural ability. :)
            1. 

               Michael (@freelittlebirds)
               29th October 2024, 11:46

               Hi Steve, Sorry I was thinking of Jules Bianchi in 2014 when he was just a test driver. Thanks for the correction.
         2. 

            Robert (@lekkerbek)
            29th October 2024, 9:12

            The fact that you think that planting a car on top of another car is planned and intentional is on another level of ignorance. Your comment about Grosjean and desperately try to include Max in that incident somehow is on another level of stupidity.

            Your bias is annoying. You don’t even know when he started in F1.
            1. 

               Doh
               29th October 2024, 11:19

               I assume you didn’t follow F1 back then. Max basically admitted it on the radio right after parking it on Lewis’s head, that he did it on purpose (perhaps to get one back for Silverstone, only he knows). He’s a bit like Marko in that respect and he did the same in Brazil 2022 and even 23 to a lesser extent.
            2. 

               Robert (@lekkerbek)
               29th October 2024, 18:27

               @Doh

               He said “That’s what you get when you don’t leave the space”.

               He means a collision in general not parking a car on top of each other. You can’t plan that and you very well know that. I also don’t know what you mean by “on purpose”. Lewis didn’t leave him any space as he squeezed him. Doing something on purpose means that you are in control. Lewis was in control at that moment.

               It was exactly the same with Russell and Perez this year. Only they missed each other by a centimeter.
            3. 

               Doh
               29th October 2024, 19:24

               Verstappen was in the exact same position 2 years later in Monza on lap 6 Vs Carlos. Carlos was also in control yet max managed to back out. Yet he “couldn’t” two years prior. Go figure. He did it on purpose. That’s what you get is an admission. 2023 only proved the point further.
   2. 

      Esploratore (@esploratore1)
      29th October 2024, 0:13

      In fact it feels always awkward when I hear crofty say “glad he’s ok” for a minor crash, I could bet all money I have he would!
   3. 

      Ludewig
      29th October 2024, 1:04

      @freelittlebirds

      There you are again with your crazy conspiracy theories.
      1. 

         Michael (@freelittlebirds)
         29th October 2024, 2:39

         It’s not a theory when it’s already happened at 2 races back to back.
3. 

   Stephen Taylor
   28th October 2024, 16:13

   Keith ,
   You say the penalties as they are currently being applied will not stop Verstappen’s . If from Qatar for example the stewards said we are going to start using drive through penalties and stop-go penalties which can’t be served as an an add-on to a normal pitstop would that stop Verstappen from using the current tactics? The Turn 4 incident probably warranted a lesser 5 second penalty. The turn 7 incident should have received a drive theough penalty.
   1. 

      Steve (@scbriml)
      28th October 2024, 18:03

      Which would have to be served within three laps, thus freeing Norris to chase the Ferraris much sooner.
      1. 

         Esploratore (@esploratore1)
         29th October 2024, 0:15

         Doesn’t that give verstappen a reason to brake-test norris, trying to take him out of the race?
         1. 

            Patrick (@paeschli)
            29th October 2024, 12:26

            That would only result in more penalties, potentially a race ban.
4. 

   Stephen Taylor
   28th October 2024, 16:17

   *Verstappen’s tactics?
5. 

   Jere (@jerejj)
   28th October 2024, 17:59

   Realistically, Lando wouldn’t have won anyway, given Carlos’ race pace.
6. 

   David BR (@david-br)
   28th October 2024, 19:12

   I think Mexico 2024 is a defining moment for how Verstappen will be considered as a driver. 2021 could be put down to early excesses, his first chance of a title, and still some immaturity. This year he’s showing that the ‘anything to win’ mentality still applies, no matter how wild his driving, and if he’s at a points advantage, his 100% willing to risk a collision on the presumption that his rival has more to lose.
   Make of that what you want, but it now defines Verstappen as a racing driver. Russell said that in their recent meeting, 19 out of the 20 drivers want to racing rule clarifications and changes. Imagine who the exception is. Down to FIA to decide what kind of sport they want. But there is ZERO doubt that if any other driver were driving like Verstappen, they’d be facing far more severe sanctions already. His Turn 7 lunge needed a stronger response.
   1. 

      João Macedo
      28th October 2024, 19:44

      “But there is ZERO doubt…”. Love it when people confidently state things that a whole lot of others think the opposite. Don’t be so passionate, David BR, you may well dislike Versttapen for whatever reasons but, take it easy, he is the World Champion, he is adored by millions, like your Hamilton is, by different millions. The full “Zero doubt” sentence mentions not only “any other driver” but also “facing far more severe sanctions”. You were really mad when you wrote it…
      1. 

         David BR (@david-br)
         28th October 2024, 21:07

         You’re mixing up two issues. Let me help you work them out: the first is Verstappen’s future reputationas a driver. Nothing to do with popularity (now) but how he’ll be viewed as a racing driver when his career ends. 2021 could have been seen as an aberration, but he’s resorting to the same kind of mindset as Schumacher of responding to WDC rivals with an aggression and willingness to cause collision not shown against, say, Sainz when he went past. That’s now indelible. He’s done the same wild driving as 2021 in 2024 against a completely different rival.
         The second issue is FIA stewarding inconsistency, nothing again to do with popularity, all to do with leniency and tolerance of the kind of wild driving for which Grosjean, for example, got a race ban. Or Alonso – in fair less clear circumstances – received a 2-second penalty in Australian this season. Clearly the stewards know when they’re seeing driving the passes the limits of acceptable, only in Verstappen’s case they always downplay the penalties. Turn 4 was a standard racing incident, Norris looked to be level or slightly ahead at the apex, Verstappen drove him off, penalty. Turn 7 was a head rush moment I’d label anti-racing, completely ignoring the ethos of the sport. I’m sure most people instinctively know the difference.
         1. 

            David BR (@david-br)
            28th October 2024, 21:08

            *20-second
         2. 

            Esploratore (@esploratore1)
            29th October 2024, 0:17

            Well, any driver that tries to copy schumacher (my favourite driver ever) gets my approval ofc, that’s why I always liked verstappen, even in his early red bull years.
            1. 

               SteveP
               29th October 2024, 7:56

               Well, any driver that tries to copy schumacher (my favourite driver ever) gets my approval ofc, that’s why I always liked verstappen,

               You probably have something there, I dislike both for the same basic reason: the habit of using extreme and illegal tactics to force a win.
               Both stand as examples of drivers that could win without the dodgy tactics, but some quirk of personality makes them go beyond the accepted boundaries.
         3. 

            Esploratore (@esploratore1)
            29th October 2024, 0:18

            The 2021 thing, being his first title, and maybe he will not do that again, but now he did, is a good point, I just don’t see it as a negative to be labelled as a driver who wants to win at any cost, like schumacher and senna.
            1. 

               SteveP
               29th October 2024, 8:01

               The 2021 thing, being his first title

               First realistic title chance. Failed, but handed stolen goods by a now disgraced official.

               I just don’t see it as a negative to be labelled as a driver who wants to win at any cost, like schumacher and senna.

               I see it as a flaw in their character. A drive to do their absolute best and beat all others – yes, cheating* – no.

               *and using tactics that flout the rules is cheating, the debate here is how much should the offender be punished.
         4. 

            Joao Macedo
            29th October 2024, 8:11

            Thanks for the long list of opinions on Versttapen (past and future?????) but you missed the point which is your ZERO doubts and your opinion (yes, opinion) on the penalties. Your sentence “Let me help you work them out ” is ugly so that’s the end of my comments to you.
            1. 

               David BR (@david-br)
               29th October 2024, 13:21

               I guessed you wouldn’t like your own patronizing tone to me turned back on you. “Don’t be so passionate, David BR” “take it easy”. Fine for you to adopt a passive aggressive strategy but not to receive it back? Please, do me the favour, zero loss for me.
      2. 

         Mayrton
         29th October 2024, 12:33

         Indeed. DavidBR is really not talking on behalve of most out there. It is rather a small group of people somehow concentrated geographically that can’t stand it their toys got thrown out the window.

         Whether you are a Max fan or not, the reality is he is an exceptional driver. And yes, he is aggressive, of course he is. All the champions are (some more so than others, but all). And Max will most definitely not be remembered for a handful of incidents which only some people keep mulling and thinking about.

         It is such a pity they miss what’s being displayed and unfolding, which is really rare in the sports history. But hey, if they want to keep focus on the flaws they can find and blow them up like the UK media does, then be my guest. I’d rather enjoy the rest of the show.
         1. 

            David BR (@david-br)
            29th October 2024, 13:25

            Really? Schumacher is remembered as an exceptional driver, one of the very best in F1 history. But also for his cheating (Monaco qualifying, taking out championship rivals) and dangerous driving (against Barrichello). Those are indelible aspects of him as a F1 driver. I’m just saying the same will apply to Verstappen, albeit a different kind of aggression and excessiveness.
            1. 

               Mayrton
               30th October 2024, 7:41

               Don’t think so at all. You are comparing apples with oranges.
            2. 

               David BR (@david-br)
               30th October 2024, 11:07

               Mayrton In this case, apples with pears.
         2. 

            Davethechicken
            30th October 2024, 8:59

            Mayrton, I get you admire Max’s “ruthless” streak. Many don’t. The vast majority of F1 champions didn’t need to resort to tactics like this and neither does Max. If all the dozens of champions in F1 I can think of 3 who get on like this.
            Is a boxer throwing low punches, biting off an ear to be admired, or a sprinter who doped to victory, or a footballer who dives to get an opponent penalised. You can go through every sport.
            In Ireland Thierry Henry is remembered as a good striker who dived in the box and got a penalty to put them out of the world cup. He will always be remembered so.
            Some may admire these traits as ruthless.
            For me sport is about fair play. The whole essence of sport is fair play. It is a completely pointless, futile, waste of time without it.
            1. 

               Mayrton
               31st October 2024, 7:53

               Which was my point in ’21 at Silverstone.

               The vast majority of F1 champions didn’t need to resort to tactics like this

               don’t be naive.
   2. 

      Tristan
      28th October 2024, 22:59

      Down to FIA to decide what kind of sport they want

      They already decided that in ’21. We’re still watching, we’re still supporting, so this is the kind of sport we want to, apparantly.
      1. 

         Tristan
         28th October 2024, 23:00

         too*
      2. 

         Mayrton
         31st October 2024, 7:55

         That’s because of hope. I watch because I hope the circusification will stop. Very naive world view, but hey.. hope is the last to die.
   3. 

      Jungle
      29th October 2024, 3:15

      Brundle – “Norris will have to treat the back of that red bull now like the hind legs of a donkey”
      1. 

         Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
         29th October 2024, 9:07

         Brundle – “Norris will have to treat the back of that red bull now like the hind legs of a donkey”

         That’s a good way of putting it.
      2. 

         Mayrton
         29th October 2024, 12:43

         Yes, are we getting the point yet? What is better for a racing driver to have such label? In any future fight Max is already 1-0 ahead even before the fight begins. He has, like Senna, Schumacher and other greats always been consistent with regard to wheel to wheel situations. The message is very clear. You (the other driver) have to decide whether there is going to be contact. Deal with it, while the greats enjoy their psychological advantage. Somehow people want to see champions but do not appreciate what it takes to become one. This would deliver only Damon Hills and Buttons as (processional) F1 champions. Nice guys for sure, but not drivers that will be talked about much.
   4. 

      Patrick (@paeschli)
      29th October 2024, 12:28

      I don’t think Max cares much what his reputation is and will be after he retires. He just wants his name as the 2024 World Champion in the history books.
      1. 

         David BR (@david-br)
         29th October 2024, 15:10

         @paeschli Seems so.
7. 

   Postreader
   28th October 2024, 19:19

   If you no longer go for a gap that exists it’s probably because iRacing Max is in front of you.
   1. 

      Michael (@freelittlebirds)
      28th October 2024, 19:44

      lol – there’s no gap when Max is driving – his car is effectively the size of a 747 that’s allowed to do anything it wants on and off track as we’ve seen him drive past everyone in the pits so his majesty will not be slowed down by the 19 peasants sharing the road with him.
8. 

   Seppo (@helava)
   28th October 2024, 19:20

   If you can take the penalty and gain an advantage… it’s not actually a penalty. It’s just a reduction in advantage. What needs to happen is that the penalties are harsh enough that drivers will desperately want to avoid them, and will learn to instinctively leave space for their opponents. Until that happens, the penalties aren’t severe enough.

   I’ve been a video game designer for decades. If you want to change players’ behavior, you don’t make things worse incrementally. You make them *much* worse, then dial things back. If the time penalties for driving someone off the track was a minute in the pits, drivers would be very cautious about not doing it. Someone would get that penalty at some point, it would feel way too severe, and next time, they’d have a chance to nerf it a bit. But you’d be able to much more quickly understand if the penalty system is working to incentivize the right behavior at all. Incremental, small increases to existing penalties won’t actually do the trick, because it’ll take LOT of iteration to understand if the behavior is changing.

   It feels weird, but the fastest way to tune things like this is to make HUGE changes, then dial them down, rather than making small changes and dialing them up.
   1. 

      rlpa
      28th October 2024, 21:57

      So basically bring back drive-through penalties. And 10 sec stop/go.
   2. 

      Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
      28th October 2024, 22:34

      @helava The problem with giving out massive penalties like ‘a minute in the pits’, is that then drivers will be so scared of getting a penalty, either due to a misjudgement or a marginal call which you might disagree with the stewards about, that you will discourage drivers from racing hard at all. You will never see drivers pushing the limit because the risk reward balance has been shifted so heavily in favour of conservative driving. Attackers will only go for very safe passes, likely in the DRS zone, and defenders will know they have to give acres of space and thus essentially leave themselves defenceless because any minor contact or pushing off the track would completely destroy their race.
      1. 

         Seppo (@helava)
         28th October 2024, 23:16

         100%. And then you’ll revise the rules again to back them off. I’m not suggesting that massive overwhelming penalties are *correct*. What I’m saying is that if you want to get to the sort of “end state” of a correctly tuned penalty, you get there faster, and with fewer iterations by doubling a penalty repeatedly until it’s too much and then dialing it back than by cranking the penalty up 10% each time.

         So yes, the point would be explicitly to make the drivers terrified of getting one of these penalties, in order to change their behavior and gauge everyone’s reaction, and then you crank it down until it’s not stupidly overpowered. :D

         I don’t mean to repeat myself, but it’s not an intuitive concept – so it’s not that a penalty should be a minute. It’s that if you want to change someone’s behavior, the change should be overwhelming, and then you can work your way back down to reason, and the end result of a “correct” scale of penalty will happen faster than if you try to make incremental changes.
9. 

   Tristan
   28th October 2024, 23:11

   In the final analysis, even with his 20-second penalty, by forcing Norris off Verstappen only lost 10 points to his rival when it could have been 13. Anyone thinking yesterday’s penalties will dissuade him from using the same tactics in the future is mistaken.

   I don’t follow this line of reasoning. As you say in the preceding paragraph there’s no guarantee Norris would have won, so it could have just been 6 points lost rather than 10.

   I think it’s too much to paint these tactics as a Verstappen master plan to delay Norris for the win in the championship rather than just desperate moves to hold/regain his position.
   1. 

      Michael (@freelittlebirds)
      28th October 2024, 23:23

      You are not taking into account the possibility of Norris getting a penalty in the tangle or retiring both of which also benefit Verstappen.

      The bottomline is that even with the penalty Verstappen’s expected net result was higher than Norris’ so the penalties were technically free – without the penalties like at Austin, he wins by breaking the rules. If Norris gets penalized for Max’s driving (which did happen at Austin), it’s a double victory.

      All arrows in Europe and the world point to Max running into Norris and winning with the FIA powerless to protect Norris or the sport.
      1. 

         Esploratore (@esploratore1)
         29th October 2024, 0:22

         Likewise, you also need to consider the possibility of only verstappen retiring, which is the dream scenario for norris: verstappen is taking that risk too with such moves.

         Agree with tristan, it’s not a given that norris would’ve won and for that reason verstappen’s penalty likely actually cost him here.
         1. 

            Michael (@freelittlebirds)
            29th October 2024, 2:31

            @esploratore1 but if Max is the one pushing Norris out and Norris always backs out, isn’t the chance higher that Norris may run into gravel or lose control of his car as he’s trying to avoid Norris? When Norris rejoined the track at Mexico, it’s not impossible that he could have run into Sainz and had an accident. But you are right something unexpected could happen and Max may get his comeuppance.
10. 

    Observer
    28th October 2024, 23:58

    “Penalties” that don’t penalize – this is F1 for the “RedBull” era
11. 

    Doh
    29th October 2024, 11:22

    He also gained greatly from Austria. Gained 10 on lando instead of losing 7. The worst case scenario would have been a puncture and no points with lando winning which would have been a 35 point loss compared to gaining 10. Got away with a lot as usual

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