The United States Grand Prix stewards issued a controversial decision which had consequences for championship contenders Lando Norris and Max Verstappen.
Norris overtook Verstappen on the outside of turn 12 but both drivers went off the track while doing so. The stewards ruled Norris had gained an advantage by leaving the track and handed him a five-second time penalty which cost him his place to Verstappen.Did they make the right call?
How it happened
As they began to slow for the corner, Norris was initially ahead on the outside. Verstappen gained on him as they approached the apex. They turned in and as they reached the outside of the corner both drivers left the circuit, Norris unable to turn in any tighter because of the Red Bull on his inside.
When both rejoined the circuit Norris was ahead of Verstappen, where he remained.
What they said
In the cars
Verstappen immediately said Norris “overtook me outside the track,” adding: “He needs to give it back.”
Norris asked McLaren to verify whether he had been ahead at the apex of the corner, which under F1’s driving guidelines would mean he was entitled to be given room. “I think I was ahead at the apex,” he said. “Let me know if you think otherwise.”
“We think you were ahead at apex,” replied his race engineer Will Joseph.
Norris added: “He also went off, so it was clear.”
After the race
Norris restated his position after the race, by which time he knew of his penalty. “He also went off the track,” he told Sky. “So, if he goes off the track, clearly he’s gone in way too hard and also get into an advantage by doing what he did.”
Verstappen insisted Norris was at fault by retaining the position he had taken. “It’s quite clear in the ruling, you can’t overtake outside the white line,” he said. “There’s not more to say. It’s painful but up until then we had a really good battle.”
The official verdict
The stewards awarded Norris a five second time penalty for leaving the track and gaining a lasting advantage.
“[Norris] was overtaking [Verstappen] on the outside, but was not level with [Verstappen] at the apex,” they explained. “Therefore under the Driving Standards Guidelines, [Norris] had lost the ‘right’ to the corner. Accordingly as [Norris] left the track and returned in front of [Verstappen], it is deemed to be a case of leaving the track and gaining a lasting advantage.”
Your verdict
How should the stewards have ruled on the incident between Verstappen and Norris? Cast your vote below and have your say in the comments.
How should the stewards have ruled on the incident between Norris and Verstappen?
- No opinion (2%)
- 10-second penalty or more for Verstappen (6%)
- 5-second penalty for Verstappen (23%)
- No penalty for either driver (46%)
- 5-second penalty for Norris (21%)
- 10-second penalty or more for Norris (3%)
Total Voters: 126
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supernicebob (@supernicebob)
20th October 2024, 23:43
How about 5 seconds for both?
theRealMax (@millionus)
21st October 2024, 0:20
I think this.
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 1:20
@supernicebob On reflection you’re probably right. I went for no penalty for either but that was on the basis of one infringement annulling the other. But penalizing both drivers would have been clearer and consistent.
Red Pill (@redpill)
21st October 2024, 3:13
@supernicebob
+1
I think this, both should get 5″ until they fix the rule with better interpretation as it’s now a slam dunk move for inside car to just brake late and go extra wide to cause the outside car a 5″ infraction. It’s now an automatic defense maneuver that will be very easy to do and pretty much eliminates most outside pass attempts. Now if Max stayed inside the track limits, then it would be less gray area, even more so if he left room but then why do that, when you can do the above?
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 4:19
That’s what I said in RF’s first post-race article. This was clearly a case where either you have to say “x caused y and therefore no penalty” or b) Max gets a penalty for forcing a driver off and Lando gets a penalty for overtaking off track, which would achieve the same thing while also following the letter of the law.
BasCB (@bascb)
21st October 2024, 7:49
Yeah, I think that would work, yeah.
Adrian Hancox (@ahxshades)
21st October 2024, 8:06
Yes, this
ChrisJ (@chriju0411)
21st October 2024, 10:40
I was even pretty sure that this was indeed gonna happen as others were punished for “forcing another driver off the track” in quite the same manner as well. And my personal belief is that’s also what would have happened if Piastri hadn’t been and finished within 5 seconds of Verstappen.
Gary Simmons (@gsimmonsonca)
21st October 2024, 13:30
Agree with this option. Lando was wrong for passing Max off the track like he did. But Max was wrong for staying ahead by blowing through the corner and pushing them both out.
If they penalized moves like Max did, then Lando have probably given the place back… The way the stewards judge these incidents right now is so flawed.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
22nd October 2024, 2:51
Why would you penalize the 2nd person as much as the one who started the whole thing and was the first repeat transgressor?
Also why would you penalize Lando for not giving up the position since an overtake is not possible given the push off limits without a penalty that Max could keep on doing until the end of the race since the stewards would rather award him an off track award instead of a penalty. I think I saw a steward running up to him and asking Max to autograph a piece of paper “I push everyone off track and the stewards love it! “
HUHHII (@huhhii)
20th October 2024, 23:44
Deserved or not the real problem is the track design and not the stewards. So many incidents in this same corner throughout the years that they should finally react. Add a bit of gravel there and things will sort themselves out.
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 1:22
@huhhii I think the issue is the stewards being totally inconsistent in this case.
Elvira
21st October 2024, 2:33
To no overtakes there or perpetual safety cars.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
21st October 2024, 8:23
I think the track is a problem but so are the rules, because I don’t think the outcome would’ve been any different had there been gravel on the outside (see Austria’s turn 4). If you drive with the rulebook in your mind, you can do what Verstappen does and “get away with it” or more accurately, race in concordance to the rules.
You only need to release some pressure on the brake pedal to get ahead at the apex irrespective of where you and your rival end up.
roadrunner (@roadrunner)
21st October 2024, 0:03
No penalty. Verstappen did to Sainz what Norris did to him. Dive-bombing and not making the corner is not forbidden, but also shouldn’t rewarded and infact until that incident they weren’t.
Addme (@dontme)
21st October 2024, 6:23
Norris should get a penalty. Overtaking outside the track and taking the position is a clear violation.
Max should also get a penalty for forcing a driver off the track. He basically reacted to Norris. He had no problem making the corner earlier while defending. Stewards are so occupied with the letter of the law, that they have lost sight of why the rules are there in the first place.
Grapmg
21st October 2024, 8:15
If you follow the rules and I assume Max was ahead of the Apex than he didn’t have to leave him room. That only leaves a track violation for Max and that is only penalized when you reach four.
If you follow commen sense all the penalties didn’t make sense yesterday. I rather have them fix these circuits and let them race
Andy (@andycz)
21st October 2024, 0:03
Why is every fight between them ending in such a farce?
Tricky (@tricky)
21st October 2024, 8:03
Why every time Max is defending it is a farce?
frood19 (@frood19)
21st October 2024, 11:03
Norris is an indecisive racer. He needs to command the inside line or else he leaves himself open to this kind of thing happening every time. However, in this case Max went off too, which kind of makes a mockery of the whole “gaining an advantage by leaving the track” – i say no penalty for either.
miciek (@micio)
21st October 2024, 0:08
Just don’t let the stewards which car is which in the clips they see! Also, don’t let them watch the race live so they don’t get biased
Grapmg
21st October 2024, 8:24
Why do you assume they are biased? I trust the stewards to do there job objective. Its just difficult because every incident is unique. The drivers and their fans will always be disappointed and don’t agree with the penalty. The stewards followed the rules and explained their decision.
miciek (@micio)
21st October 2024, 12:53
They are biased because that’s how humans work. The fact that they know they are judging Max vs Lando incident already makes them biased because they know they fight for championship.
BenHur
21st October 2024, 0:10
Crystal clear verdict overt the Norris/Verstappen incident:
No penalty for either pilot, and a race ban for Alonso.
Signed: Johnny Herbert
RandomMallard
21st October 2024, 0:11
Having read the stewards report, I’ve come to the conclusion that the penalty was technically correct, but not fair. That is, with how the rules are written, Lando in theory should be penalised, but only because the rules massively favour a defending driver over an attacking one. The “one size fits all” approach to driving standards implemented by the guidance simply fails to account for all scenarios and subtleties, and results in some of the weird rulings today. I honestly think the guidance is the bigger problem than the stewards here…
MacLeod (@macleod)
21st October 2024, 8:03
Indeed McLaren should warned him as already 3 drivers had the same penaulty at the same corner. When it happened I knew Lando would get a penaulty as the Stewards couldn’t do anything else.
An Sionnach
21st October 2024, 9:48
The passing driver has to choose when to make a clean pass. The defending one has to give space if the other driver is far enough ahead. It used to be the case that the driver in front could hold the racing line. They have to concede in more situations now, and DRS can make defending impossible in some situations. I think some of the rules around passing are now too hard to work out as you’re driving and things are moving so quickly. It would be better the old way. Whatever about that, there has to be a balance. Where is it? For now, it’s unrealistic to expect the stewards to ignore the rules, even if it is to follow someone else’s version of “common sense”.
Tacit
21st October 2024, 0:16
If there had been gravel, Lando would have backed off or ended his race. He was behind at the apex, simple as.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
21st October 2024, 0:18
I think Norris and McLaren don’t know how to compete. The move was on the limit, and if you do get a penalty to go down a place directly behind your rival with no chance to get back ahead. Had they gave the position right away, he’d have had time to re-pass.
It’s like the Piastri incident in Hungary. He stubbornly continued to race being convinced he was right without considering the implications if he wasn’t
And let’s not forget he was behind Max because he was caught sleeping at the start. How can you leave even a tiny space to a guy that has nothing to lose against you??
w0o0dy (@w0o0dy)
21st October 2024, 6:08
You sir are correct!
SpaFrancorchamps (@spafrancorchamps)
21st October 2024, 7:46
Re-pass? How? The same would happen again next lap: Max runs you off track, you either give back the position or you risk a penalty.
MacLeod (@macleod)
21st October 2024, 8:06
Oh sending a dummie as if it’s the same and go to the inside behind Max is too difficult? Just using a different line would be hard for Max to defend.
SpaFrancorchamps (@spafrancorchamps)
21st October 2024, 9:26
Max doesn’t allow you to put it on the inside. He’s got that covered.
Gerrit
21st October 2024, 0:50
Problem is the defending driver simply goes to the inside line, hugs the apex, slows down a tad at apex to force the over taking driver to the outside line and then the defending driver simply drifts, on acceleration, to the outside curb at corner exit to force the over taking driver wide and off the track. If we look a the first lap first corner, Verstappen did this (but to his own disadvantage for it let LeClerc through) though Norris did not get an advantage. The forcing a driver of the track rule, seems now to be non existent. Wont be long before we get a pissed off outside driver refusing to go wide and cause both to end their race there and then.
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 1:12
I thought the ruling established after Interlagos 2021 was fairly clear, you have to stay one wheel on track at least to justify forcing the driving on the outside wide onto a runoff area (that seems important because when there’s a wall or gravel, other factors come into play, such as the danger of a serious accident or wrecking the other driver’s race). But Verstappen went entirely off track. In doing so, I think, he basically forfeits any legitimate claim to being ahead and Norris gaining an advantage by going off track is annulled.
A question: if Norris had slowed and stayed behind, would Verstappen have been penalized?
I’ve absolutely no idea why the other drivers who forced a rival off track got penalized while Verstappen didn’t. None at all. I can understand him not being penalized as compensation for Norris passing him but not the double hit of Verstappen not being penalized AND Norris getting a penalty. That’s just bias.
AlanD
21st October 2024, 2:54
David “A question: if Norris had slowed and stayed behind, would Verstappen have been penalized?”
I think the answer is no, because it Norris had stayed behind, Verstappen would have stayed on track, by choice. The reason he ran wide was to crowd Norris off track. There is supposedly a rule saying you have to leave at least a car’s width if a car is alongside you but drivers just do not respect that, unless they are crying that they were the one forced off. Personally, I feel deliberately forcing another driver off track is a worse transgression than overtaking off track, and I get fed up of hearing ex-driver pundits declaring someone was a millimeter ahead at the apex, or was taking the natural racing line, or whatever.
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 10:12
To explain, I meant let Verstappen force him off track but then slow so that Verstappen kept the lead. That way Verstappen should have got a penalty, not Norris.
Overtaking Verstappen in these championship battles is always the same: try on the outside and he’ll force you wide or cause a collision, on the inside and he’ll turn in, causing a collision. An eternal game of chicken.
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 1:14
What’s your view @keithcollantine? (sometimes your opinions appear, always enjoy it when they do).
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
21st October 2024, 1:21
@david-br Truthfully, I’ve not fully made my mind up. The luxury of not being a steward!
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 1:25
@keithcollantine Fair enough! It’s not clear cut. I think Norris has a point saying that the stewards wanted (or were asked) to decide before the race ended and maybe rushed the decision.
Maciek (@maciek)
21st October 2024, 3:26
Both cars going off makes it a debatable call, but really Norris should’ve given the place back right away and had another go. Wishful thinking on steward decisions isn’t a great strategy.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
21st October 2024, 4:03
Formula 1 is dead – it was dying and it was pronounced dead today by the US GP stewards who struck the final blow.
Mike Davies (@nanotech)
21st October 2024, 4:09
I must say, F1 has died in a similar manner many times in the last 70 years or so :)
Very silly outcome today, nevertheless
Sumedh
21st October 2024, 5:27
It should have been no penalty for either.
Norris was actually significantly ahead of Verstappen on the straight. By that logic, Verstappen was the overtaking driver. The overtaking driver dive bombed, didn’t make the corner, the defending driver had to take avoiding action and hence couldn’t make the corner. *The positions before and after the corner were same* .
No penalty required.
Palindnilap (@palindnilap)
21st October 2024, 8:06
+1
Alesici
21st October 2024, 11:32
This.
The guidlelines say that a car overtaking on the inside should not (deliberately) force the other car off the track at the exit. This includes leaving a fair and acceptable width for the car being overtaken from the apex to the exit of the corner.
And it must be able to make the corner within the track limits.
w0o0dy (@w0o0dy)
21st October 2024, 6:12
The rules say Norris deserved the penalty. Even though I feel.both did something wrong here the rules lead to penalty for Norris. Quite clearly too.
But amend the rule to make re-taking the position when you have been overtaken in a corner to “must stay on track” and it becomes more race-able.
Matthijs (@matthijs)
21st October 2024, 6:33
No penalty. Don’t blame the drivers, blame the track design. When there would have been a natural runoff of grass and gravel, we would not have to deal with these nonsense penalties.
Neil (@neilosjames)
21st October 2024, 6:38
The standard I have for the ‘pushing a rival off/gaining an advantage’ stuff is that the one who does the pushing off should do so while maintaining a more or less natural line through the corner. Part of that involves staying on the track. If they’re unable to stay on the track – eg, because they braked too late and were unable to stay within the track limits – they should get a penalty for pushing a rival off, or the rival being pushed off should not be penalised if they complete the overtake off the track.
I know much is made about the ‘ahead at the apex’ thing, but if you’re only ahead at the apex because you braked too late and can’t keep your car on the track, for me you lose any protections or rights granted by being ahead at the apex.
So for this one, given the outcome, my personal rulebook says no penalty. Norris was ahead into braking, Verstappen divebombed, cut off Norris’ line (fair up to this point), but was unable to make the corner and – for me – that means he forfeits the ‘protection’ against being passed off the track.
Mayrton
21st October 2024, 6:46
Not worth the question and not worth writing an article about imho. But I get it, it feeds the bias again.
w0o0dy (@w0o0dy)
21st October 2024, 6:51
Oh and the standard penalty was 10s in previous races… So not sure why they were handing out 5s penalities in this race….
MacLeod (@macleod)
21st October 2024, 8:08
That was because of contact that was the difference.
Jere (@jerejj)
21st October 2024, 7:00
No penalty for either after the precedent set by the more or less identical opening lap incident involving Sainz.
JOA20
21st October 2024, 7:41
Verstappen had no business going off the track. That’s it, really. Had he kept a sliver of a tire on the white line he’d be in the right, except he didn’t.
Still, that was stupid from McLaren and Norris. He had the pace advantage to let Verstappen past and overtake him properly in the following lap. Why bother risking a penalty? But I guess they’re still lacking the mojo to
JOA20
21st October 2024, 7:45
They’re still lacking the killer instinct to be World Champions.
David
21st October 2024, 8:13
The test is whether the driver on the inside would have made the corner. Verstappen didn’t make the corner, he was a foot over the line. So Lando had the right to carry on racing, even though he was off the track.
If Lando had not gone past, it would have been a penalty for Max. If Max had stayed on the track, penalty for Lando.
But since they were both in the wrong, and nobody took damage, it has to be considered a racing incident. No penalty.
However I don’t like seeing drivers gain a place by using so much of the run off. This isn’t really Lando’s fault. The track has such a huge apron at the end of the straight, it’s no wonder drivers make use of it.
I know the apron is there for safety and for the motorbikes but it contributes to having these situations where an optimistic defence and an off-track pass become commonplace. I’m sure they can modify it so that it is less viable as a racing line.
Palindnilap (@palindnilap)
21st October 2024, 8:20
Frankly, during the race it felt like the stewards were flipping a coin between “going off the track and gaining a lasting advantage” and “forcing another driver off the track”. Upon reflexion, I think they rather rushed their decision on that one because the race was about to finish and it was about a podium position. Whatever the silly “ahead of the apex” rule says, de facto it was Verstappen who tried an overtake and went off track. Penalizing the other driver made no sense.
Unlike what happened in 2021 I am pretty sure it was not about favoritism. If the stewards wanted so badly to penalize Norris, they could have done so for his super late defense on the subsequent pit straight and then it would have been hard to argue against it.
Illusive (@illusive)
21st October 2024, 8:31
McLaren except for Oscar right now is a embarrassing team of clowns. They have 1 sec a lap faster car and still manage to somehow struggle to overtake or even manage the situation where they could have handed the place back and re overtook Max since his tyres were done.
Max once again proving to be racing genius with his masterclass defense and using the rules to his advantage, this guy has so much mental capacity to think that even a whole team can fall for his traps and not out think his strategy.
Max in 21 Bahrain handed the place back to Lewis as instructed by his team and that was for a win.
This goes to show having a fast car isn’t just enough. My god this team doesn’t even deserve constructors and I hope Ferrari wins it.
Patrick (@anunaki)
21st October 2024, 9:08
Within the current rules Norris could’ve gotten 10 seconds so they already were leanient.
RBAlonso (@rbalonso)
21st October 2024, 9:19
Once again I’m disappointed with McLaren’s inability to view incidents objectively.
I’d have given Max 5s for forcing a driver off the road and Lando 10s for overtaking off the circuit. That would have put both behind Piastri (who McLaren clearly thought had chance of getting 3rd otherwise they’d have pitted him for FLAP.)
Lando is ahead but not at the apex. I hate that drivers can loiter on exits and run deep into braking zones but Lando has to be smarter. Everyone knew Max would run him out of road, Lando should have stayed on the track at all costs. There are only 2 ways to pass Max, up the inside or letting him run deep. It was an enjoyable, highly skilled battle but Lando is once again the car on the outside, who complains when run out of road. Learn the lesson.
Patrick (@anunaki)
21st October 2024, 9:25
To make it a bit more clear: if you’re ahead at the apex theoretically you can’t force the car on the outside off the track because it’s your corner and the other has to back off. So you can’t punish Max for that.
If Norris had backed out, Max would get a strike for track limits and also no 5 sec penalty unless it was his 3rd.
Is that fair? Probably not. But this is the rule and so the stewards have to apply it.
RBAlonso (@rbalonso)
21st October 2024, 9:43
Yeah I agree but I think Max is only ahead at the apex by actioning a ‘fail to lose a position’ maneuver. So, I think that he is guilty so forcing Norris off in order to sustain his place. As he then loses that place with Norris committing an illegal move, the stewards can’t punish him for it. I probably would have but I agree you can’t punish someone for failing to lose a place, when they have lost the place.
I think the rules are imperfect but I can’t think of a better way of writing them. The solution has to be track limits as it always was. But Norris would be better served by staying on the road, I can’t understand why McLaren thought he was 100% certain to keep the place.
Alesici
21st October 2024, 11:37
How about re-writing rules so they do not allow drivers to drive others off the road? This would be fairer, less dangerous, and more fun, as it would mean battles would keep going from one corner to the next.
RBAlonso (@rbalonso)
21st October 2024, 16:48
I think modern drivers are willing to be ran off the road in the hope the stewards deal with it for them. So the forcing element is always hard to judge – for example I think if there was gravel on the exit of 12 Norris would have made that corner. I think he chose to go off to exaggerate his point.
The trouble with writing a rule that says “if you are ahead at the apex you must make the corner” is that we would need an instant track limits penalty, which would become inconsistent. In effect, the best solution is if your car is outwith the track confines it’s a drive through. I’d like to see that rule in place as it would guarantee fairness for all and would be simple for fans to understand. But I can’t see anyone ever going for it and it would be used as an excuse when overtaking numbers fall as it is fairly draconian.
David West
21st October 2024, 9:57
Verstappen gained an advantaged by not losing a place by going off track, he was only ahead at the apex as he had come off the brakes which meant he couldn’t then make the corner.
Stewards are pretty dim if they can’t see this, it’s Brazil 2021 again, plus anyone of several other examples.
If all the drivers started doing this it would be interesting to see the consequences.
Grapmg
21st October 2024, 11:29
But Verstappen did loose a place so that argument doesn’t apply. Maybe if Norris would have backed out that would have been noted but I doubt that he gained a clear advantage.
Grapmg
21st October 2024, 10:08
After the incident it looked like Norris decided to let max by in turn 1. Than he moved under braking. Looked like he made up his mind at the last moment. Anyone also noticed this?
Craig
21st October 2024, 12:22
I did notice that. I suspect Norris and McLaren were considering it before remembering how previous decisions at that corner had gone and decided against giving the place back. Clearly had too much faith in the stewards being consistent.
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 10:43
Alonso deserved a 20-second penalty for driving while being a dastardly villain and a 10-second penalty for racing very close to another car. lol, I will never fail to chuckle no matter how many times I or someone else references those penalties.
Phil Norman (@phil-f1-21)
21st October 2024, 12:50
A penalty for both drivers would have been the most fair outcome. I don’t think Max really needed to take the corner as wide as he did. He knew what he was doing.
Equally though, it was fairly obvious that Lando would be given a penalty. McLaren should have told him to give the place back quickly. More bad decision making from them. Lando might never have gotten past but the outcome would be the same.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
22nd October 2024, 2:45
@phil-f1-21 yeah but giving up the position would have made sense if McLaren believed Max would get a penalty. The odds of Max getting a penalty for any rule he breaks are pretty much zero.
Carl Parker (@mysticarl)
21st October 2024, 13:09
They got it right for the guidelines as-written. The guidelines should be updated to prevent repeats of this sort of defence of a position.
Pjotr (@pietkoster)
21st October 2024, 14:05
I didn’t believe McLaren made this mistake. Norris should have backed off, forcing me of the track. Penalty for Verstappen. In stead he chose to overtake.