Lando Norris said Red Bull have committed a clearer breach of the rules with their bib device than anything McLaren have done.
The world champions are understood to have made changes to their car following discussions with the FIA centred on the behaviour of the ‘bib’ at the front of its floor under its nose.Red Bull is believed to have had a device which allowed the height of the front of the floor to be altered. This could have allowed them to run the car lower to the floor in qualifying, when it is light on fuel, than in the race. Doing so could allow them to tailor the RB20’s set-up more effectively.
Norris said it was hard to judge how much they could have gained from using such a device in a year when lap times among the top four teams have often been extremely close in qualifying. Max Verstappen and George Russell set identical pole position times to within a thousandth of a second at the Canadian Grand Prix.
“It’s one thing having it on your car, it’s another thing on how much you exploit it and use it, which we have no idea [about],” said Norris in today’s FIA press conference at the Circuit of the Americas. “So, if it has been helping them, if they’ve been utilising it in a way people think they have, then maybe it will shift in our direction.
“When you talk about things like that, they’re not going to have got several pole positions or wins just because of such a device. So I don’t think it really will change anything in the scheme of things.
“But when we look at maybe certain qualifying [sessions], and we look at the gap in certain races this year when it’s been split by hundredths of a second in qualifying, or even thousandths, then you might say, okay, well maybe this helped in that direction or this direction.”
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McLaren agreed to change their car’s rear wing after rivals raised concerns over how much it flexed at high speed during the Azerbaijan Grand Prix. However Norris said Red Bull’s breach of the rules was more egregious.
“I think it’s good that the FIA are doing such a thing,” he said. “There’s a difference between black and white stuff like this, and there’s a difference between [it being] Formula 1 and pushing the boundaries and creating new things and innovating within the space that you allowed to innovate.
“I think that’s what we as McLaren have done a very good job in but we’re sure not to go any further than that.”
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2024 United States Grand Prix
- McLaren insist stewards made ‘provable error’ after losing bid for review of Norris’ penalty
- Why McLaren’s focus on Verstappen’s driving failed to overturn Norris’ penalty
- Stewards reject McLaren’s request to review Norris’ United States GP penalty
- McLaren know Norris’ penalty is likely to stand – so what do they hope to gain?
- McLaren request review of Norris’ penalty for off-track pass on Verstappen
Yes (@come-on-kubica)
17th October 2024, 21:55
Some retroactive disqualification please.
anon
17th October 2024, 22:13
@come-on-kubica whilst we now know that Red Bull did have a mechanism to adjust the floor from within the cockpit, given Red Bull have released a statement confirming that it existed and they are modifying the car, the FIA would require proof that the device was being used to change the height of the floor illegally to levy that sort of punishment.
From what has been said so far, it seems that nobody has found evidence of it being used when it shouldn’t have been. Red Bull’s defence is that the mechanism was fitted, but was only used to speed up adjustments to the floor height during the practice sessions, when it would be legal, and couldn’t be used whilst the car was in parc ferme.
Now, whilst it seems some have their doubts about whether it was used only in practice – and evidently you are one of them – unless the FIA can find conclusive proof that it was definitely used illegally, they are unlikely to penalise Red Bull. Instead, they are probably going to compromise on a position that is effectively “we’ll not investigate further if you agree to remove the device a.s.a.p.”.
Chris Horton
17th October 2024, 23:07
Oh yeah. They had it but never used it.
Right.
Jojo
18th October 2024, 16:19
Obviously they did use it, all teams are allowed adjust the bib height during the weekend, as it is legal to do so before qualifying.
However to use it they apparently need to remove the nose cone and a secondary panel, so I’m not aware of a sneaky way they could have done this when the car was in parc ferme. Maybe we’ll find out more about this.
stefano (@alfa145)
18th October 2024, 0:36
wait, I can install anything on the car as long as there’s no proof I used it in a race? Supplementary fuel tanks with special fuel in them? active suspensions “that I don’t use”? a second engine and battery pack “that I don’t use unless you have proof”?
uzsjgb (@uzsjgb)
18th October 2024, 2:03
All teams alter the floor all the time. That is fully legal. Having a device which speeds up this process makes a lot of sense. Red Bull did not even hide it, the FIA knew about it and the other teams found out about it through publicly available documents.
BasCB (@bascb)
18th October 2024, 8:18
Unless you are cought red handed during an inspection, or someone can prove you used it beyond doubt, then yeah, there really is no way to conclusively say they DID use something.
We can all speculate and feel they might – remember how Senna was convinced that Bennetton used their option 13 right until he perished in that sad race in San Mariono, the FIA found the SW but they were never able to prove it was used.
MacLeod (@macleod)
18th October 2024, 8:21
@alfa145 As uzsjgb said it’s a feature ALL teams do Red Bull made it so that they can adjust it faster then the other teams. As Red Bull came out themself you can bet you pretty behind they never used it after qualifly as the feature is under Max feet and you would see a monteur getting fysicial inside the cockpit to adjust that. And this under the watchfull eyes of the FIA …..
You an request all image matrial to check it your self ofcourse.
SteveP
18th October 2024, 9:10
You do know that there are long periods of time covered by the parc ferme rules when the driver isn’t even in the garage, never mind the car.
Adjust a slightly loose brake pedal/seat mounting/etc or adjust a bib height control…
Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t, but they definitely gave themselves the opportunity.
anon
18th October 2024, 10:27
@macleod there are parts of your post that seem rather confused – did you mean to put some of that text through translation software?
With regards to the question of whether the mechanics could have operated the mechanism in parc ferme – there are several ways that Red Bull could justify having a mechanic working inside the cockpit under parc ferme conditions.
The parc ferme regulations state that teams are allowed to undertake some maintenance work whilst the cars are in parc ferme, such as making adjustments to the pedal mechanisms, checking that the transponders work correctly, replenishing certain fluids (such as brake fluid) and bleeding the braking system and so forth.
Those sorts of maintenance activities would involve mechanics removing sections of bodywork and working inside the cockpit, so Red Bull could potentially disguise working on that mechanism under the pretext of carrying out maintenance work on something else instead (particularly as several of those activities do involve working in the pedal box area, where you claim that the mechanism was located).
MacLeod (@macleod)
18th October 2024, 14:17
@anon Sorry about that it seems my limited English is mixing Dutch words and structure in what i said. (Monteur = Mechanic)
While I know under Parc Ferme the car can be worked on but that is always done with someone of the FIA next to it. (And everything is filmed) So it will be how you can adjust the BIB if that is easy todo.
The system was know as it was avaiable for all teams and the FIA accepted it was fine. (untill a team protested that)
It’s more a system to speed up setups without the need to completly dismantle the car. Remember all teams have the some kind of system for adjusting the BIB but seems to have the dismantle more parts so it saves time.
anon
18th October 2024, 10:46
@alfa145 the mechanism that was fitted to the car is not necessarily illegal in itself, but it is the way that it could potentially be used that could enable them to break the regulations.
In the intentionally exaggerated cases you give, those would be automatic breaches of the technical regulations because there are specific rules that prohibit those types of devices from being fitted to the car.
In this scenario, though, Red Bull’s defence is that the mechanism would be used only in the practice sessions to speed up the process of making adjustments to the floor. Using the mechanism in that scenario would be legal, since the teams can make adjustments to the set up until the car first leaves the pit lane in qualifying, which is when the parc ferme regulations first apply.
It would be using the mechanism once the car is in parc ferme to make additional modifications to the floor height that would then be illegal, and which is the subject of speculation at the moment. The FIA, for their part, do not seem to have conclusive evidence that the mechanism was used in parc ferme, but the possibility that it could be used in parc ferme is enough for the FIA to ask for modifications to be made.
Dex
18th October 2024, 10:47
Disqualification for what reason? Apparently, they approved the device. Reading titles is not always enough.
Steven Flatman
18th October 2024, 22:40
Why, they made it easier to adjust when the car was being set-up in practice and for that they should be disqualified… but McLaren develop a wing which clearly allows gaps to negate the DRS flap closing, and another that flexes when ‘flexible aerodynamic components’ are specifically banned and you think they haven’t crossed any lines (remember that in 2022 RedBull’s rear wing passed EVRY FIA test and the tests were changed mid-season requiring a costly redesign, but the same was not applied to McLaren because the FIA said this would be unfair).
Le Jimster (@lejimster82)
17th October 2024, 22:05
I’d be amused if Red Bull go and dominate this race now.
I guess I’m glad somebody actually came out and made a proper accusation rather than shying away from the issue, we all wanted to know which team is supposedly “cheating”. On the other hand, we’ve been here before when Red Bull were accused of flexi-wings etc, new tests were brought in and it made no difference. It’s going to be harder to judge if this has any effect since they aren’t currently the fastest team anyway.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
18th October 2024, 2:42
It won’t change anything, by the sounds of it, it is a tunable device which is locked in for the race and qualifying, or unchangeable after ‘setup’. McLaren’s flexible wings while passing, definitely do seem to go against the spirit of the regulations. And for the brake biasing, nobody really knows what that was about, could just as well be bait for people to believe Red Bull had to change their car and that’s why they can’t turn on the tires anymore.
More than likely though, it’s the tires that are not favoring Red Bull anymore.
Cranberry
18th October 2024, 6:57
The existence of flexing wings is not under doubt by anyone, Spa 2010 they even caused VET to T-Bone BUT from behind…
That the FIA tests have failed to catch teams flexing their wings to gain an advantage, is also not a secret. RB started flexing their wings almost 15 years ago, and this year we had McLaren’s Mini-DRS.
All because the FIA is somehow not competent enough to use video evidence to prove that what was recorded actually happened, and in a way that can be seen in he recording.
Mayrton
18th October 2024, 7:05
Let’s see some racing Lando. Keep focus without whining.
stjs16 (@stjs16)
18th October 2024, 11:00
I’m sure He’ll appreciate your comment. Have a blessed day.
Robert (@lekkerbek)
18th October 2024, 7:06
“Lando Norris said Red Bull have committed a clearer breach of the rules with their bib device than anything McLaren have done.”
Since when? Since they “voluntarily” changed their rear wing a couple of weeks ago?
BasCB (@bascb)
18th October 2024, 8:21
Yes. Because the wing as used was not technically infringing on the rule, “just” a rather dodgy interpretation using a part where stuff wasn’t that clearly defined (and after agreeing not to use it, the FIA reformulated stuff to make it clear this is not the intent) and this on the Red Bull which – if used – would be a clear infringement on the rules.
Riccard
18th October 2024, 8:49
Wing was against the rules but within the test used to *check* the rules.
Main difference between the wing and the quicker-ride-height-changer seems to be that we have video of the wing breaking rules during a race, whereas we haven’t seen the Red Bull ride height change between quali and races.
If it has been used then it is in increments not visible to the camera-assisted eye – unlike those wings.
anon
18th October 2024, 13:36
Riccard, it’s not the ride height that is changing, but the height of the front of the floor relative to the ground that would be adjusted with this mechanism. By it’s nature, given it is on the underside of the car, it would be much harder to determine whether that has changed by visual inspections alone.
Steven Flatman
18th October 2024, 22:44
But you said it ‘if used after qualifying’ which there is absolutely zero evidence it either has been or can easily be other Zak Brown deducing that a different design to the 9 other teams (who are all also able to adjust their bib angle with a similar amount t of work, only from outside the car) MUST be cheating.
MichaelN
18th October 2024, 7:41
This is a bit eye roll inducing after the way Norris talked about the criticism of McLaren’s less than entirely by the books wing just last race weekend.
In both cases, the FIA should have done a better job.
Todfod (@todfod)
18th October 2024, 9:43
Just goes down to more FIA failures. No single team can be accused of ‘cheating’ if FIA can’t screen effectively. Its a shame, because no one even knows how long Red Bull were running this braking bib.
Maybe Sulayem needs to focus more on upholding the rules/integrity of the sport instead of focusing on language and jewellery. How Sulayem’s head hasn’t rolled is surprising. He was never capable of being in this position in the first place.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
18th October 2024, 13:07
Hey Lando, Michael Masi has 3 words for you. It’s called motor racing!
Between 2021 and Max, the overspending fiasco, and this, I’m not sure that Red Bull have won a single championship in this era. Perhaps, they can prove to the FIA how they did.
You cannot back them up after cheating 3 times. They should have championships revoked but it would hurt the sport so now we have to keep them as champions knowing they only won them by cheating enough to win.
David (@nvherman)
18th October 2024, 14:30
@freelittlebirds It seems that Red Bull Racing and Max Verstappen are living rent free in your head
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
18th October 2024, 16:00
@nvherman they’ve winning championships in F1 rent-free.
Steven Flatman
18th October 2024, 22:47
Giving the staff a free lunch doesn’t make the car go faster and the ONLY reason that was included was the employment of a certain member of staff who looked at what RedBull did that other competitors didn’t… funny how the Mercedes subsidised car scheme wasn’t included as a performance enhancer but the RedBull subsidised sandwich scheme was….
GK
18th October 2024, 15:24
This smells like a nothing burger. The rival teams allegedly found out about “the trick” via open source documents that every constructor submits to the FIA, so if Red Bull were to break the rules, they shot themselves in the foot by making it public. I would expect them to do the opposite if they were hiding something.
Norris and Hamilton have thrown a shade, because its part of the game. They fight on the track, and in the media.
Tristan
18th October 2024, 16:48
They’ve had a lot of personnel leave the team this year, I’d bet Red Bull are letting the FIA know about it now rather than have one of them go to the FIA about it, then they really would be in trouble.
Riccard
19th October 2024, 9:26
If they have used this illegally between quali and racing, talking about it publicly would only make people who’ve left *more* likely to mention that yes, it was used illegally.
If they’re willing to put all this out there despite those people having moved to other teams, it suggest that they’re not worried about any stories they might have to tell.