Andretti set for “key meeting” as they continue efforts to join F1 grid in 2026

37 comments on “Andretti set for “key meeting” as they continue efforts to join F1 grid in 2026”

1. 

   Johns
   13th April 2024, 1:15

   COTD:
   Well, Liberty Media is always looking for a gimmick to improve the show. First it was the Mario Cart DRS, and coming in 2026 push to pass. I guess screwing with the sleep schedules is just another randomizer. It could be worse, they could impose reverse grids and random rain storms via sprinklers.
   1. 

      grat
      13th April 2024, 2:48

      Oh, FFS.

      DRS was introduced in 2011 after McLaren introduced the F-Duct system in 2010.

      Liberty bought F1 in 2017.

      At least try to get the basic facts right?
      1. 

         Nick T.
         16th April 2024, 8:27

         Johns pops up once in a while and drops some absolute nonsense and then disappears back into the woodwork. I doubt we’ll see him come back to add any credible points.
   2. 

      grat
      13th April 2024, 2:50

      Oh, and the sprinklers was Bernie’s idea.
      1. 

         Constantijn Blondel
         13th April 2024, 14:45

         I always thought the sprinklers one of Bernie’s better ideas :D
         1. 

            SteveP
            14th April 2024, 8:26

            Well, it rates higher than cheating the taxman, but not by much
   3. 

      S
      13th April 2024, 2:59

      Reverse grids and sprinklers would be way better than DRS will ever be.
      1. 

         Nick T.
         16th April 2024, 8:33

         Wetting the track actually would be great. Wet races emphasize driver skill and natural feel, typically leads to a lot more passing and is just generally more entertaining. Not sure why using it at normally boring tracks would be so awful. Seems no more artificial than mandating running multiple compounds, restricting the number of tire sets, etc.
   4. 

      anon
      13th April 2024, 12:09

      Johns, as noted by grat, if you can’t even get basic facts right – such as claiming DRS was introduced by Liberty Media, even though they had nothing to do with it – then it makes your arguments look nonsensical.

      Don’t forget that it was Bernie Ecclestone who was saying “All sports today are show business and it gets dangerous for a sport if people start to forget that.” back in 2012, and was the one who pushed for the changes you complain about. If you want to rant about gimmicks, at least go to the effort of criticising the right person and go rant at Bernie instead.
      1. 

         S
         13th April 2024, 12:48

         Ah, Bernie. Ahead of his time.
         He already knew back then how boring F1 was going to be in the future.
         1. 

            Nick T.
            16th April 2024, 8:35

            And 2013 was one of our greatest seasons ever.
2. 

   bull mello (@bullmello)
   13th April 2024, 1:40

   Goodspeed Mario Andretti!
   Much success to and for Andretti Global.
   1. 

      Jungle
      13th April 2024, 3:03

      Persistent bunch aren’t they…
      1. 

         An Sionnach
         13th April 2024, 5:12

         Hopefully Andretti will get in. The way it’s gone for them so far, they’d have been refused entry if they bought and entered Lotus. Would be nice to see this happen, especially with the Mario connection. Since the Lotus 79 was the first ground effect car, that would make it even more of a no-brainer. How far ahead of Sauber and Alpine would Mario finish in it?!? Could Max put it on pole? He’s not a fan of heavy cars so might love this one.
         1. 

            anon
            13th April 2024, 12:32

            An Sionnach, asides from the fact that you can’t get basic facts right – the Lotus 79 is not the first ground effect car – a Lotus 79 would not perform anywhere near what you seem to be fantasising it might do.

            Peter Wright and Martin Ogilvie – the leading designers for the Lotus 79 – have described the Lotus 79 as being a fairly flawed design in reality. To pick just a few issues, the brakes were famously underpowered, even by contemporary standards, the cooling system was inadequate and, even compared to contemporary designs, the chassis was famously lacking in torsional stiffness. The aero performance is also somewhat over-exaggerated as well – it was impressive for a brief period of time, but rapidly surpassed by contemporary designs (and not particularly impressive by modern standards).
            1. 

               An Sionnach
               13th April 2024, 13:39

               It’s clearly a joke that takes a few connections to the story and adds plenty of hyperbole to make it clear it is not serious.

               On facts, my comment written at about five in the morning was pointing to the 79 being considered the first F1 car to fully take advantage of ground effect. It should not be necessary to point out that I mean an F1 car in this discussion, although I should have noted the difference here and that the 78 was the first ground effect car in F1.
            2. 

               An Sionnach
               13th April 2024, 13:48

               Andretti also drove the 78. When he says they already have a car I thought it would be funny if it was his championship-winning one, although he drove both the 78 and 79 in 1978.
      2. 

         Esploratore (@esploratore1)
         13th April 2024, 12:50

         Yes, love their persistance!
3. 

   Jere (@jerejj)
   13th April 2024, 6:29

   Usually, the driver ahead in the championship standings receives upgrades first, so a somewhat surprising switch from this tradition.

   COTD is spot-on, & if only they stopped being hell-bent on something as trivial as doing the LV GP a week before Thanksgiving, as this limits flexibility unnecessarily excessively, it could take place a week earlier (& if necessary, have the Thursday-Saturday pattern for Sao Paulo GP), which would easily avoid having LV & a Middle East location on consecutive weekends.
   1. 

      Nulla Pax (@nullapax)
      13th April 2024, 9:33

      I’m assuming Magnussen has got them first as a thank you for his team work at the Saudi GP?
      1. 

         notagrumpyfan
         13th April 2024, 14:08

         Or given Haas’ track record, Hulkenberg decided to skip all upgrades until proven on track.
4. 

   notagrumpyfan
   13th April 2024, 7:54

   The way I experienced Las Vegas is that it doesn’t have a time zone at all ;)
5. 

   Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
   13th April 2024, 8:52

   Nice to see the Tony Kanaan piece that kind of pulls together some things going on at the moment. His 2013 Indy win left the Andretti team with 2nd, 3rd and fourth, but no gripes from Mario. And here’s Mario F1 world champ Indy 500 champ USAC Cart and if it had wheels he won in it, heading into a meeting with people that will “educate him” about motor racing

   Now 50 years since that Rutherford win and TK taking it for a spin. That car was the McLaren M16C-5 “unsponsored” winner. Rutherford also had a short track version the McLaren M16C-4 differentiated by a black roll hoop.
   I don’t think they’ll let him loose with the 1000 bhp quali mode or 800bhp race mode but would be great to hear.

   Strange out of those really rough and tumble times , Rutherford and AJ Foyt.are still with us as is Parnelli Jones the eldest surviving race winner, and Paul Goldsmith is the second and Mel Kenyon, is the third oldest living veteran of the race.
   Happy birthday Mel , he turns 91 on April 15 still putting in daily on constructing rebuilding engines etc. literally “single handedly”.
   1. 

      Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
      13th April 2024, 8:57

      Forgot there’s a nice review of 2013 race here
      
6. 

   Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
   13th April 2024, 8:58

   https://apnews.com/finally-tony-kanaan-gets-elusive-indy-500-victory-acbb5b3ac10e4507b25cd5597f8127ff
7. 

   bernasaurus (@bernasaurus)
   13th April 2024, 9:30

   That Driver tutorial. Why players were dropped in like that I’ll never know. That the actual game was infinetly easier with instructions, arrows and maps made you wonder what it was all for.

   I’ve no doubt some copies were returned to the rental stores before they managed to get out the car park.
8. 

   ferrox glideh (@ferrox-glideh)
   13th April 2024, 13:51

   I would trade any sim racing coverage here on Racefans for WRC coverage in a heartbeat. Just sayin.
   1. 

      Avro Anson (@avroanson)
      13th April 2024, 15:10

      +1
9. 

   MichaelN
   13th April 2024, 17:23

   While the majority of FOM’s missive about Andretti was nonsensical, the fact that Andretti does not, as of right now, have any engines with which to compete in 2025, 2026, or 2027 is a serious problem for his outfit. Even if it’s true that the regulations provide for a way around this, it’s a very confrontational and arguably objectionable way to do business.

   Now there is a conflict of interest here, as each of the current F1 engine builders outright own, or have a singular relationship with, existing teams that get to divide up the commercial rights payout of $1.2 billion. But be that as it may, Andretti gave FOM and said teams a huge opening which they, predictably, exploited.
   1. 

      AlanD
      13th April 2024, 22:33

      Michael, can you explain what you mean by singular relationships? Take Mercedes for example. Yes, they outright own the Merc team, but they also supply engines to McLaren, Aston Martin, and Williams. What is the “singular relationship” in these cases? Do any of these customer teams currently have a guaranteed engine supply in 2026? If Renault plans to stay in the sport as an engine supplier for 2026 and beyond, isn’t it likely that it would like to have at least one customer team so it gets a bit of economy of scale and return on its investment?
      1. 

         MichaelN
         13th April 2024, 23:13

         I think this got caught up in a somewhat confusing auto-correction as I fumbled around trying to combine single and exclusive. Or something.

         Either way, what I meant to say was: the current rules oblige the PU supplier with the fewest customers to supply a team without an engine supplier. This is Andretti’s lifeline, and in 2025, this would be Renault. Renault might not want to this, but that’s the rule. This works (somewhat) in the context of the 2014 PUs. But in 2026 the PU landscape will be different, and consist almost solely of suppliers who only work with a single team.

         Mercedes is will supply its own partly owned team, alongside Williams and McLaren (both through 2030).
         Ferrari will only supply its own team (although it’s expected to continue with Haas).
         Red Bull/Ford will only supply its own team (albeit with four cars under two names).
         Audi will only supply its own team (formerly Sauber).
         Honda will only supply Aston Martin.
         Renault will only supply ‘Enstone’ (it’s now reported that rumours in the paddock are that Renault wants to sell the team on the condition that their engines will be used).

         So in this scenario, Andretti poses a problem. The 2025 situation no longer works. What engines would they use? Nobody wants to put their engines in an Andretti car, nor are they keen on giving Andretti (and GM) two full seasons of insider access to their program.

         Andretti’s entry, while in theory very much a plus for F1, cannot be considered a serious entry so long as they don’t have an engine. Even if the rules, technically, give them a way out. The changes to the PU landscape for 2026 just make this problem all the more pressing. The 2028 timeline for GM is just too slow.
         1. 

            SteveP
            14th April 2024, 10:42

            Andretti’s entry, while in theory very much a plus for F1, cannot be considered a serious entry so long as they don’t have an engine. Even if the rules, technically, give them a way out. The changes to the PU landscape for 2026 just make this problem all the more pressing. The 2028 timeline for GM is just too slow.

            Exactly this.

            The thing that puzzles me is the development timeline.
            Given that the PU specification for 2026 has only recently been announced/finalised, in theory all engine developers including GM have the same development time. So, in theory, GM should be able to produce an engine for 2026, but they say 2028 is their target. For me, that suggests that, despite comments to the contrary, they have not yet even put together the team to carry out the development.
            Unless they need to spend two years studying up on someone else’s homework:
            “Nobody wants to put their engines in an Andretti car, nor are they keen on giving Andretti (and GM) two full seasons of insider access to their program.”
            1. 

               S
               14th April 2024, 13:21

               So, in theory, GM should be able to produce an engine for 2026, but they say 2028 is their target.

               The majority of the next F1 engine is identical to the current one. The existing manufacturers have had more than 10 years to perfect it.
               GM has not. Audi have been working on theirs for a while now already, and the ‘Red Bull/Ford’ will closely resemble the existing Honda’s specs (and is also already well into development).

               The bigger issue for GM is not that they can’t produce an engine by 2026, but that they simply don’t want to. They want Andretti’s team on the grid already, proving that they can design a decent chassis and run a decent race program.
               Renault would almost certainly be happy to supply them an engine, as they had already agreed to in principle prior to FOM demanding that they go off and find their own engine manufacturer.
               Renault have been saying for many years that they’d like a customer team to help them gain more data on their engines.
               Having awarded Mercedes a special exemption to supply 3 customers, I don’t think there can seriously be much meaningful resistance within F1 to allowing Renault to supply Andretti for a couple of years.

               It may even help keep Renault in F1.
            2. 

               AlanD
               14th April 2024, 16:57

               Steve, interesting point re developent times. Maybe developing an engine for F1 involves setting up a specialist production centre with the right sort of build and test gear, which shouldn’t be a problem for F1, but maybe it also involves recruiting the right specialist staff etc, and I guess it is hard to recruit people to build an F1 engine when you don’t have a timescale in place with the FIA. However, getting an engine into F1 is easier than getting a whole team in, as there will always be teams wanting an alternative engine supplier.

               I’m also thinking about the reason why the current REd Bulll Honda engine is so successful. Honda were officially out of F1 for a few years during which time they could do unlimited testing on their engines without any budget rule complications, so they were able to enter F1 with Red Bull with a very well tested and reliable engine. Eanwhile, Merc and Ferrari were unable to improve their engines because of the engine freeze regs. So maybe there is something like this, that GM would want a couple of years of free development so they could catch up to the other engine builders in terms of experience and technology.
            3. 

               pcxmac (@pcxmac)
               15th April 2024, 14:56

               @Alan, RBR Power-Trains adopted a new battery in 2021, and probably kept pushing the motor, and didn’t really push the envelope until they convinced the other manufacturers to freeze. OR, its political, and the FIA are letting RBR find away around the rules in order to make up for being shafted all those years after Toto scammed his way in to F1 with the Merc PU. At any rate it sucks because its frozen, and RBR will continue to destroy any other make until 2026ish, and after that it won’t matter because the drivers won’t even really be controlling the ICE as much as some sort of quasi hybrid value, which is mapped to what ever type of corner the driver is trying to attempt. The upside is there will probably be a lot more accidents and complaining about how slow the cars are.
      2. 

         Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
         14th April 2024, 1:26

         Take Mercedes for example. Yes, they outright own the Merc team

         Unless I am very much mistaken, and I probably am.
         The “Mercedes team” is very much a triumvirate.
         Owned in approx equal parts by Torger Christian Wolff , Ineos, and DaimlerAG.
10. 

    David
    17th April 2024, 15:08

    Mario was definitely referring to being put through the “wringer” not the “ringer.”

    The Andrettis are are many things, but they aren’t laundry.

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